I died last night

SandraZaffinaKerth Thank you Sandra, for such a thoughtful comment!

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

WHPDave Thank you, I appreciate your article. As you said, life is impermanent, good and bad, and acceptance of that rather then attachment to what was or could be is important to happiness. All we have is this moment, nothing outside of this moment exists outside of our mind. And even in this moment, everything can change. So I recognize how suffering can be unnecessary and tied to attachments on what was or what will be, to non acceptance of life's impermanence. But I also see the good that arises out of our ability to suffer, when through it, it cultivates empathy and is tied to our ability to love deeply...I am not sure you can have one without the other. Just my thoughts :).

SandraZaffinaKerth My only suggestion to you Sandra, is consider the difference between empathy and compassion. I too used to think that being empathetic was a good quality. But I have since realized that empathy means we suffer with the other person. This has neither benefit to them our to the self. Compassion on the other hand has no such effect, and benefits both.

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

SandraZaffinaKerthWHPDave "I also see the good that arises out of our ability to suffer". So true! If one takes some time and really thinks about it, it becomes clear that suffering is necessary for us to function.

jms_kail But do you think there is a path out of suffering Jim? And do you think one could not function without this suffering?

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

WHPDave There is suffering that is beneficial and there is suffering that is not beneficial. Our evolved brains can go overboard. Nature does not care if we suffer and are miserable creatures - it is only concerned with survival and reproduction. I think that there are paths out of the "not beneficial" suffering or at least ways to decrease it. I doubt that there is a way to avoid all suffering and if there were I certainly would not take it and if you really think about it, you would not either. Second question. No, I do not think you can function without suffering because as Buddha said, you would have to get rid of all desire or wanting. Patients in mental institutes cannot get out of bed because they lack desire.

jms_kail Then that begs the question if you think Buddha was suffering. And if you think that, then his teachings cannot be true, correct?

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

WHPDave Why lump all of his teachings together? Buddha was a human. Some of his ideas and teachings are brilliant and I incorporate them into my life - self observation, mindfulness, lovingkindness, living in the moment, meditation, desire as the cause of all suffering. But others, not so good. Trying to eliminate certain human emotions and trying to eliminate all suffering I believe is incorrect and conflicts with modern understanding of human nature.

jms_kail That's the wonderful thing about this practice isn't it Jim. We can each choose for ourselves, and it's all good. A little dhamma or a lot of dhamma, it is still beneficial to the self and others!

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

WHPDave So true Dave! I think though if one goes into the practice with the attitude that Buddha knows everything, that this is making Buddha into a supernatural being - a god. Only gods understand everything and there are no gods.

I had to look up a description between empathy verses compassion because I wasn't sure.

 I see your point that in compassion you can still show concern without sharting the feeling...while in empathy you share the feeling. I can see why compassion is a much healthier choice. But still, I think good things come along with suffering...not sure you can have things like empathy and love without knowing suffering.

Can I just ask, if there is a path out of suffering, is the path out of suffering really about preventing/eliminating it or just learning how to accept and cope with it? If I tried to eliminate and prevent my children from suffering, won't they just suffer more later on? That's why sometimes I think suffering is good, because it cultivates empathy or compassion (not sure which one to use now, lol) and it teaches us how to cope with an enviornment we cannot control. Eckart Tolle said once that the greates tspirtual leaders have arison out of the heavest pain bodies, people who have suffered the most.

SandraZaffinaKerth Until I am completely without suffering myself, I don't think I am qualified to answer that Sandra.

My latest conversation: The path of sadness

So true. Me neither. I am just happy to be able to practice a little bit of the things I have learned..

SandraZaffinaKerth Compassion comes from 2 latin words - "com" meaning together and "pati" meaning to suffer.

jms_kail Interesting.

jms_kail You know, I thought about what the extremes would look like when it comes to suffering...heavy suffering and non suffering (not assuming death). And what I envisioned with heave suffering was strong attachments and desires and an in ability to cope. And with non suffering, I couldn't help but envision a psychopath (although if monks are capable of non suffering they certainly are not this). Again, my views may be flawed in my understanding of Suffering from a Buddhist perspective. But I found this article, which I thought you may find interesting. http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/criminals-word

SandraZaffinaKerth Man - that was an interesting link. Evolutionary psychologists say that we find these evil stories so fascinating because for our ancestors, it was a matter of life and death to know who might be a criminal in the tribe and we carry this mechanism in our brains today. I never thought of linking non-suffering with psychopaths, but you are right. They surely suffer less than other people when it comes to compassion. My guess is that they may suffer mentally in other areas. My guess also is that monks do suffer less since they have less attachments - no spouse, no children, few possessions. But the question is, what price is paid for this? What is sacrificed for this?

jms_kail Wonderful observations and examination Jim. And there's never any need to start with an apology, as your comments are always welcomed and appreciated!

David Musgrove Thank you so much fro sharing that David. Bless you.

jared.a.edwards Right View is seeing the realities of this moment and our own impermanence and decay. I may talk about this a lot, but it does not mean that I have fully accepted this truth. This is what I work towards. A greater understanding and acceptance of this life and this moment.

WHPDavejared.a.edwards Absolutely. I would suggest that we all are working toward this and have not grown into it fully by any means.

I suppose I've been in a mode as of late to question the motivation for this "work". Is it love? Where is and what determines the line between attachment and love. Another way to ask the question is "When do our desires become bigger than ourselves?" One could "love" their new home which would be an attachment, but when one loves another human being, that is another thing entirely; especially if it involves sacrifice.

So, why? Is it evolutionary? Did something in the frontal cortex form along the way that facilitated these emotions and the humans that had that seemed to survive better? If that's the case, wouldn't the words of Buddha and Jesus have been common place instead of timelessly profound and worthy of lifelong pursuit?

I guess I'm just asking some questions that would cause us to follow the rabbit hole of our impermanence and "I started, I did stuff, I end". So why the Right View? Should we really care? And why?

jared.a.edwardsWHPDave Right view is the understanding of reality. As I see it, we always have the option to be happy or unhappy. In reality things are impermanent whether they are animate or inanimate. Therefore, there is no point of trying to pursue things in life, because ultimately you have nothing. I think it is the beauty of life. Nothing to nothingness. Things arise, stay for awhile and pass away. We suffer when we don't see this nature of reality. There is absolutely nothing that we can say mine. It just a concept. Nature doesn't care whether you are happy or not, it just function the way it suppose to. In that case, to see this reality not as a concept, but as a practical matter we need the right view. You don't have to let go everything that you have in order to be happy or make life simple. But, are you ready when the time comes to let go tangible and intangible things that matter to you?

Evolution is another word for change. That theory describes how we adopt to this change physically and emotionally. If you can see that change, we should be able to navigate ourselves with a control manner. In another words suffering is optional. I think jared we both are in the same track here. Better survival. Not sure about what do you exactly mean by "f that's the case, wouldn't the words of Buddha and Jesus have been common place instead of timelessly profound and worthy of lifelong pursuit?"

Sorry if my English doesn't make sense. :)

san San, your English is great my friend! WHPDave As far as the "right now" being all that we have, I do and don't believe that. Makes no sense when I say it like that, but let me try again. One of the main things that I appreciate about the Buddhist faith is the focus on the breath that helps brings such presence to the here and now; the idea that this moment matters because it's here. I feel like Christianity (my faith) tends to put too much effort on another age and another place. That mindset can minimalise the intensity with which we love and give in this moment, because one might be convinced that "this" is all so temporary, so why not just wait it out till "heaven" and then it's all good.

But one of the things that I like about the Christian view (if interpreted this way) is that our stories are connected in a way that our choices, words and actions echo throughout time. And not so that we can "live on" in some way but so that the impact of our lives better the ones that breathe after we have stopped.

HERE'S where my question comes into play. IF there is little to no purpose to us or to others, why does it matter? Is it community theatre reduced to the smallest discernable audience? Who's watching? Why put on the play? The curtain will fall in just a moment and whatever applause that is given will grow silent in slightly more than an instant. And this insignificant play will keep repeating itself with our children and theirs and so on... If this is the deal, then it's absolutely pointless to choose anything other than sitting backstage and getting drunk.

HOWEVER, if there is more; a bigger audience, a tape rolling in the back, THEN these moments count and every word, gesture, inflection and reaction count.

To pretend like we are not part of something bigger than ourselves and this moment alone, we are diluting the moment by trying to elevate it.

It's like if the medical world treated every sick person by just "making them comfortable" instead of trying to help them get better. To ONLY think about the pain of the moment and anesthetize oneself is to, yes, make good use of the moment. But we don't operate that way. We can't see tomorrow but we certainly want the doctors to help us get there and beyond.

I would argue that certain people have walked the planet as Spiritual doctors with insight about this "tomorrow" that we all sense and that, in part, is why we erect entire faiths around them; because there is an ultimate "health" for this day and for another day. And it's not something that we all act on, it's not in our mere survival mechanisms, it's asleep under the surface and needs to be awakened. And when that happens we become different, and for a reason and with a purpose.

jared.a.edwardssan Jared, first of all, I really enjoy and appreciate hearing your views and examining your questions.

And as much as I would like to reply with my own words, I did find the following on another site, and felt it really addressed what you refer to much more clearly than I could.

The Buddha is like a good doctor. First a good doctor diagnoses the illness. Next he finds out what has caused it. Then he decides what the cure is. Finally he prescribes the medicine or gives the treatment that will make the patient well again.

The Four Noble Truths

1. There is Suffering Suffering is common to all.

2. Cause of Suffering We are the cause of our suffering.

3. End of Suffering Stop doing what causes suffering.

4. Path to end Suffering Everyone can be enlightened.

1. Suffering: Everyone suffers from these thing :

Birth- When we are born, we cry.

Sickness- When we are sick, we are miserable.

Old age- When old, we will have ache and pains and find it hard to get around.

Death- None of us wants to die. We feel deep sorrow when someone dies.

Other things we suffer from are:

Being with those we dislike,

Being apart from those we love,

Not getting what we want,

All kinds of problems and disappointments that are unavoidable.

The Buddha did not deny that there is happiness in life, but he pointed out it does not last forever. Eventually everyone meets with some kind of suffering. He said:

"There is happiness in life,

happiness in friendship,

happiness of a family,

happiness in a healthy body and mind,

...but when one loses them, there is suffering."

2. The cause of suffering

The Buddha explained that people live in a sea of suffering because of ignorance and greed. They are ignorant of the law of karma and are greedy for the wrong kind of pleasures. They do things that are harmful to their bodies and peace of mind, so they can not be satisfied or enjoy life.

For example, once children have had a taste of candy, they want more. When they can't have it, they get upset. Even if children get all the candy they want, they soon get tired of it and want something else. Although, they get a stomach-ache from eating too much candy, they still want more. The things people want most cause them the most suffering. Of course, there are basic things that all people should have, like adequate food, shelter, and clothing. Everyone deserve a good home, loving parents, and good friends. They should enjoy life and cherish their possessions without becoming greedy.

3. The end of suffering

To end suffering, one must cut off greed and ignorance. This means changing one's views and living in a more natural and peaceful way. It is like blowing out a candle. The flame of suffering is put out for good. Buddhists call the state in which all suffering is ended Nirvana. Nirvana is an everlasting state of great joy and peace. The Buddha said, "The extinction of desire is Nirvana." This is the ultimate goal in Buddhism. Everyone can realize it with the help of the Buddha's teachings. It can be experienced in this very life.

4. The path to the end of suffering: The path to end suffering is known as the Noble Eightfold Path. It is also known as the Middle Way.

THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH

When the Buddha gave his first sermon in the Deer Park, he began the 'Turning of the Dharma Wheel'. He chose the beautiful symbol of the wheel with its eight spokes to represent the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha's teaching goes round and round like a great wheel that never stops, leading to the central point of the wheel, the only point which is fixed, Nirvana. The eight spokes on the wheel represent the eight parts of the Noble Eightfold Path. Just as every spoke is needed for the wheel to keep turning, we need to follow each step of the path.

1. Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.

2. Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.

3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.

4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.

5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."

6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.

7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.

8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.

Following the Noble Eightfold Path can be compared to cultivating a garden, but in Buddhism one cultivates one's wisdom. The mind is the ground and thoughts are seeds. Deeds are ways one cares for the garden. Our faults are weeds. Pulling them out is like weeding a garden. The harvest is real and lasting happiness.

jared.a.edwardssan I think that San answered much better than I did, by stating that Right View is the way to eliminate suffering right now. And "right now" is really all we have. Do you agree?

WHPDavejared.a.edwardssan

If we never 'love' we never 'grieve'. What about suffering (grief) when someone we love dies? We hold it with compassion; we honor the suffering. There is a time to mourn and a time to rejoice. Without the mourning there could be no rejoicing.

Right View, I beleive, allows us to move through the 4 stages of grief Elizabeth Kubler-Rossworte about to the 5th stage, acceptance, more easily. But we have to honor and hold with compassion each stage. To do any less would make us Spock-like; completely lacking emotion.

tldr: There can be no joy in someone's presence without some grief with when they are absent.